There have been WAAAAAAAAY too damn many passes lost by good Geeks on this site over the years, and a rash of them lately. I for one am !@#$! tired of seeing generous people getting their cigars stolen/lost/ruined.

IMO, if too much pass "crash and burning" occurs, it will have a permanent detrimental affect on the CG community.

I think it is agreed upon that if a solution could be found to alleviate this problem, we should do it.

One solution that I've been thinking about, is requiring pass participants to place a cash deposit with the pass owner as a condition of participation. The deposit would have to be large enough to make stealing the pass a bad bargain. PayPal would make this a fairly easy thing to do. This solution would reverse the trust linkage - and reduce the trust analysis to just one guy (the pass owner) -vs- the entire pass list, as it currently is.

So, please vote, and leave comments. And if you have a different idea on how to solve this problem, please do post it.

Please state in your reply how you voted and why.

Thanks. I look forward to the day when it is extemely rare for a pass to come to an untimely demise........

Not sure if I have a better or different solution, but my main concerns are:

How to figure the value of the pass, as it continues to move along the value goes up as sticks are added.  So how does the cost get set? At the beginning or a projected cost at the end?

When would the deposits be retuned?  As the pass moves along or at the end?

Maybe have a neutral party hold the funds.  If a pass has 15 people and at $100 (which is way low) per person that is $1500.  99.9% here are honest, hard working people, but that money could tempt someone...

Once some guidelines are agreed upon, I would not mind paying in though...

I'm not sure at this point.  I might.  I really think it would be worthwhile to post the details of lost cigar passes.

I voted no I think this was brought up before in a tread.  I do agree it is not a good thing to have a pass stolen or lost and damaged. But as cocon said how do you determine the value at the

start and end.  Maybe insurance could be purchased by each member before it is sent, with a set amount stated by the moderator that would cover the lost or damaged cigars.  As for

someone stealing a pass not sure what we could do to stop that    

I wouldn't pay to play.  I say let Karma deal with the guilty.  It sucks to lose a pass to be sure, but how do you determine the amount of the deposit?  If you are using the potential loss of your deposit as a deterrent against theft, the amount of the deposit would have to be greater than the value of the sticks, which is bound to increase as the pass progresses.  An unscrupulous moderator (or individual holding the funds in escrow) could make off with a lot more that his initial investment.

Deposits and returns sounds like a big hassle to me. Postal insurance should be enough to cover it being lost. As for being stolen by a member? That's just unconscionable and requires a severe penalty. There are plenty of passes that exceed several hundred dollars in value towards the end. The You Gotta Be Serious To Play Serious Pass was a pretty damn pricey collection of sticks! What kind of deposit would be required to participate in such a pass?

Quotecocon - 12/2/2012  11:41 AM  Not sure if I have a better or different solution, but my main concerns are:  How to figure the value of the pass, as it continues to move along the value goes up as sticks are added.  So how does the cost get set? At the beginning or a projected cost at the end?  When would the deposits be retuned?  As the pass moves along or at the end?  Maybe have a neutral party hold the funds.  If a pass has 15 people and at $100 (which is way low) per person that is $1500.  99.9% here are honest, hard working people, but that money could tempt someone...  Once some guidelines are agreed upon, I would not mind paying in though...

If I did this on a pass I owned, I would set the deposit thus: Total value of the initial set of cigars, plus the average cost times 2X the number of participants equals the price of the deposit. I would release each deposit after it arrived at the next participant, and that person vouched for the posession and condition of the pass.

Quotempurtle01 - 12/2/2012  11:56 AM  I'm not sure at this point.  I might.  I really think it would be worthwhile to post the details of lost cigar passes.

I know of ~5 lost/stolen/ruined passes in 2012. Perhaps the pass owners that have had their passes lost etc will post the details; I would greatly appreciate it if they did.

I don't think that I would.  I am at a point where passes are more trouble than they are worth.  I usually put in more than I take out and generally find that I grab something that I could get elsewhere and if I did grab a rare cigar I would pay big time for it in puts.  Any prepayment would just add to the hassle for me and probably just make me stay away from the rare pass I do participate in.  I think it is up to the moderator of the pass to determine if they want a deposit.  I'd be more concerned with getting my deposit back depending on who is running the pass.  If Señor Pablo wanted to set up some sort of general insurance fund that you need to give to to participate in passes I might be more likely to do it.  This wouldn't be a deposit though, more like if you want to participate in passes you need to give X dollars on a X basis and that will compensate owners of lost passes.  

So only the guy who took the bundle would end up paying for the cigars?

QuoteBeegerply - 12/2/2012  12:03 PM  I voted no I think this was brought up before in a tread.  I do agree it is not a good thing to have a pass stolen or lost and damaged. But as cocon said how do you determine the value at the   start and end.  Maybe insurance could be purchased by each member before it is sent, with a set amount stated by the moderator that would cover the lost or damaged cigars.  As for  someone stealing a pass not sure what we could do to stop that    

Yup, I remember this being discussed once before. Regarding stealing a pass, if the deposid was more than the box's value, passes could not be stolen; only "purchased".

Quotempurtle01 - 12/2/2012  12:27 PM  So only the guy who took the bundle would end up paying for the cigars?

Correct. All other pass participants would get their deposits back.

Quotegitfiddl - 12/2/2012  12:03 PM  I wouldn't pay to play.  --snip--  An unscrupulous moderator (or individual holding the funds in escrow) could make off with a lot more that his initial investment.

True. But if it is acceptable for one guy to trust 10-15 guys with a box of his cigars worth $200-$500, what's wrong with the 10-15 guys trusting the moderator with a deposit that covers the box's value?

QuoteVroomp - 12/2/2012  12:18 PM  Deposits and returns sounds like a big hassle to me. Postal insurance should be enough to cover it being lost. As for being stolen by a member? That's just unconscionable and requires a severe penalty. There are plenty of passes that exceed several hundred dollars in value towards the end. The You Gotta Be Serious To Play Serious Pass was a pretty damn pricey collection of sticks! What kind of deposit would be required to participate in such a pass?

True on the hassle; but ask Jeff if it was a hassle that his pass didn't make it home.

By my formula (see my post in this thread) I would have set a $550 deposit for the "You Gotta Be Serious To Play Serious" pass.

Quotelowpro75 - 12/2/2012  12:26 PM  I don't think that I would.  I am at a point where passes are more trouble than they are worth.  I usually put in more than I take out and generally find that I grab something that I could get elsewhere and if I did grab a rare cigar I would pay big time for it in puts.  Any prepayment would just add to the hassle for me and probably just make me stay away from the rare pass I do participate in.  I think it is up to the moderator of the pass to determine if they want a deposit.  I'd be more concerned with getting my deposit back depending on who is running the pass.  If Señor Pablo wanted to set up some sort of general insurance fund that you need to give to to participate in passes I might be more likely to do it.  This wouldn't be a deposit though, more like if you want to participate in passes you need to give X dollars on a X basis and that will compensate owners of lost passes.  

Good points all. I have also thought about setting up a general fund for passes and those who participate in them.

i'm not sure. as stated above a big chunk of money seems more tempting than a box of cigars. in that scenario someone is bound to kite/borrow the pass money and hope to have it back in the bank by the end of the pass or a wife "takes off with it"etc. etc. i would think we all are trustworthy enough but it seems a few folks turn to the dark side from time to time from what i'm reading here.

i guess my vote is no untill i think about it some more.

I voted no as well. I have the same concerns as Cocon.

I would not pay to play. The integrity of the folks that do participate should not be punished by the actions of azzholez. Maybe up the requirements to join a pass. The moderator makes the final decision, so it really falls on them to include people they trust, and folks they do not know . The newbies could do a virtual pass to earn the trust of those already established on this site. Send their puts first and then receive their takes. They pay the postage to get their share of the pass. I also think it would help to have a thread that includes a list of all the azzholez who have stolen a cigar pass. Use not only their screen name, which can change, but their real, criminal name. That is all they are, thieving azzholez. Don't let a few azzholes and their selfish ways ruin what many on here have a ton of. Integrity, faith, trust and the brothership of all things cigars.  

Also, since it can be a hassle for the moderator to have to ship those virtual passes back to the newbie, make the newbie pay a cigar penalty. They must send their puts first, along with an extra nice cigar for the super cool geek who included them in the pass!  

Quotewescat - 12/2/2012  1:34 PM

Quotegitfiddl - 12/2/2012  12:03 PM  I wouldn't pay to play.  --snip--  An unscrupulous moderator (or individual holding the funds in escrow) could make off with a lot more that his initial investment.

True. But if it is acceptable for one guy to trust 10-15 guys with a box of his cigars worth $200-$500, what's wrong with the 10-15 guys trusting the moderator with a deposit that covers the box's value?

There's just something about it that bugs me.  Without getting into my personal finances, I know that I couldn't do it and, even if I could, I would feel uncomfortable tying up $300 for the time it takes to complete a pass.  Furthermore, if there's an issue with trusting one individual with $300-$500 worth of cigars, then (and I'm mean no disrespect to anyone here, nor am I implying anything) there should definitely be an issue with trusting one individual with $3K-5K.

Quotenirab - 12/2/2012  1:18 PM  I would not pay to play. The integrity of the folks that do participate should not be punished by the actions of azzholez. Maybe up the requirements to join a pass. The moderator makes the final decision, so it really falls on them to include people they trust, and folks they do not know . The newbies could do a virtual pass to earn the trust of those already established on this site. Send their puts first and then receive their takes. They pay the postage to get their share of the pass. I also think it would help to have a thread that includes a list of all the azzholez who have stolen a cigar pass. Use not only their screen name, which can change, but their real, criminal name. That is all they are, thieving azzholez. Don't let a few azzholes and their selfish ways ruin what many on here have a ton of. Integrity, faith, trust and the brothership of all things cigars.    Also, since it can be a hassle for the moderator to have to ship those virtual passes back to the newbie, make the newbie pay a cigar penalty. They must send their puts first, along with an extra nice cigar for the super cool geek who included them in the pass!  

I like the idea of a Blacklist. That thread should be locked, and only Admins can update the list. And we should differentiate between those that screwed up and worked to regain the trust of CG, and those that do not.

This thread has a lot of additional info and discussion:    http://www.cigargeeks.com/index.php?topic=5199.0

Voted no!. Great points nirab.

I would not pay to play, but then again I don't participate in passes anymore because I have more than enough cigars to keep me occupied.

I think the person hosting the pass should set it up anyway that makes them feel secure. They can choose their participants at their own discretion, use a deposit, or just free wheel it. It is a shame that passes get stolen and those few jerks that do it ruin it for others, but pass moderators beware; this is the internet, a community of millions who can pretend to be nice and be anonymous at the same time. Stealing $500 worth of cigars with no chance of being caught and the only consequence is giving up internet friendships can be attractive to many types of scammers and even tempt non scammers to bite.

I wish it was not like that, but it is.

Quotenirab - 12/2/2012  2:18 PM  I would not pay to play. The integrity of the folks that do participate should not be punished by the actions of azzholez. Maybe up the requirements to join a pass. The moderator makes the final decision, so it really falls on them to include people they trust, and folks they do not know . The newbies could do a virtual pass to earn the trust of those already established on this site. Send their puts first and then receive their takes. They pay the postage to get their share of the pass. I also think it would help to have a thread that includes a list of all the azzholez who have stolen a cigar pass. Use not only their screen name, which can change, but their real, criminal name. That is all they are, thieving azzholez. Don't let a few azzholes and their selfish ways ruin what many on here have a ton of. Integrity, faith, trust and the brothership of all things cigars.    Also, since it can be a hassle for the moderator to have to ship those virtual passes back to the newbie, make the newbie pay a cigar penalty. They must send their puts first, along with an extra nice cigar for the super cool geek who included them in the pass!  

well put.

I value Kevin's idea to try and fix the problem, and like the idea of maintaining a list of the past "bad" participants (with both screen name AND real name/address only viewable by members with 300+ POST points) so that newer members can screen out participants to their passes. As of today, that would allow 135 members to view this list, and these are the members have really participated here and have earned their stripes.  If a newer member wants to start a pass and doesn't have access to the list, he/she can always PM a FOG to verify the prospective participant for them. Of course, this is entirely up to SenorPablo.

However, it is ultimately the pass owner that has to the responsibility and the risk of those that he/she allows into the pass in the first place. This "list" doesn't bar even a brand new member from being in a pass, but that is up to the owner's discretion.