alcohol/cigar aging?

Started by GameOfCigars, 06/16/2016 12:26 PM

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GameOfCigars

Hello everyone,

I was wondering if anyone ages their alcohol (beer/wine/spirits) along with some cigars to try them together as they age?  I was thinking of doing this with beer as well as some scotch and bourbon.  Any thoughts on pairings would be great!

Cheers,

Brandon
"If you get hooked on scotch, then everything else just tastes wrong."

http://www.cigargeeks.com/index.php?action=humidors;area=public;member=GameOfCigars


DonM

While I am not sure that alcohol ages in a bottle, some cigars are much better when given a nice rest. Me, if I am in the mood for it, I smoke em and drink. Be happy when you are indulging

"The Curmudgeon"













appollo

I make home brew and it does get better with age.But if you gottem smokem .If I have more that one of a certain stick I will smoke one and let the others age and try it again. :-)

cavenbk

I am with Don in that I don't know that whisk(e)y or wine age in the bottles. I know that certain beers supposedly do though. Personally I usually don't keep much alcohol around long enough to see if it ages. Also, Welcome from another Pittsburgher. Where abouts do you live?
You can judge the character of a man by the things he laughs at.

"A man's true character comes out when he's drunk."     - Charles Chaplin


Brlesq

Quotecavenbk - 6/16/2016  7:42 PM

I am with Don in that I don't know that whisk(e)y or wine age in the bottles. I know that certain beers supposedly do though. Personally I usually don't keep much alcohol around long enough to see if it ages. Also, Welcome from another Pittsburgher. Where abouts do you live?

How does Mike's Hard Cranberry Lemonade age?  :biggrin:

Bruce
Chief Enabler 
Guru of Decorum & Sarcasm


Hey! How come Habana is written on here with a Sharpie ?!?

A day without whiskey is like . . . just kidding, I have no idea!


MacMac

I've never aged alcohol, but I think people age wine..
Joe aka MacMac to 9 Grandkids

cavenbk

QuoteBrlesq - 6/16/2016  10:12 PM  
Quotecavenbk - 6/16/2016  7:42 PM  I am with Don in that I don't know that whisk(e)y or wine age in the bottles. I know that certain beers supposedly do though. Personally I usually don't keep much alcohol around long enough to see if it ages. Also, Welcome from another Pittsburgher. Where abouts do you live?
How does Mike's Hard Cranberry Lemonade age?  :biggrin:  

 Aging Mike's Hard really mellows out the sugar in it. I love a good vintage Mike's

You can judge the character of a man by the things he laughs at.

"A man's true character comes out when he's drunk."     - Charles Chaplin


Rebecca Silverwolf

If you really want to age spirits, consider investing in one of the wooden aging casks that are available. I haven't bought one yet myself, but I have friends who have been happy with Deep South Barrels.

http://www.deepsouthbarrels.com/
"Well, we may not have parted on the best of terms. I realize certain words were exchanged. Also certain... bullets."

"If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed."

-Captain Malcolm Reynolds

BigTA

#8

I have yet to try my hand at aging spirits but as Rebecca points out, You can get all types and sizes of wooden kegs, As far as cigars go I let them age if I don't smoke em...

 

QuoteRebecca Silverwolf - 6/16/2016  8:21 PM  If you really want to age spirits, consider investing in one of the wooden aging casks that are available. I haven't bought one yet myself, but I have friends who have been happy with Deep South Barrels.  http://www.deepsouthbarrels.com/

 

 

 

Cheap sex, Cheap booze, Cheap cigars, Everybody loves a bargain.

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GameOfCigars

Alcohol can age in bottle.  Typically if there are harsh flavors it will make them more subtle (ie a barrel aged stout that has been on oak for too long becomes smoother and less aggressive on the palate after about a year or so)  I was looking at this mainly to see if anyone had a drink they really enjoyed, say a nice Glenlivet and also had a box of cigars that they kept and had a drink and smoke on occasion (ie birthday) every year.  I wanted to see how the pairing would hold up over time.
"If you get hooked on scotch, then everything else just tastes wrong."

http://www.cigargeeks.com/index.php?action=humidors;area=public;member=GameOfCigars


GameOfCigars

I own a few of these.  I brew at home and do a lot of scotch/whisky infusions so they come in handy.  They don't have a super long shelf life though.  After using them so much, the char gets muted and doesn't impart much anymore.
"If you get hooked on scotch, then everything else just tastes wrong."

http://www.cigargeeks.com/index.php?action=humidors;area=public;member=GameOfCigars


Jackal

Because of the high alcohol content (>20% ABV) of hard alcohols, they will not age in the bottle.  The only aging that will take is if they are put in a container that has extractable materials (such as a wooden cask).

Beer has a much lower ABV, and can undergo changes with time (especially Trapist or home brews, as they are still reacting at time of bottling).  Most beers that are not Trapist or home brew will suffer adversely from long term storage.  This is why many lagers and pilsners  put a bottling date on the bottle.

I'll do what I will and I'll drink what I please
I'll smoke what I like 'till I cough and I wheeze
I'll drink and I'll whore and every pleasure realize
For this time tomorrow I may die


GameOfCigars



Not entirely true. Higher ABV spirits can mellow with age.  Otherwise, there would be no reason to hold on to bottles from prior years.  They do mellow out some.  The reason they age well, get stronger, in a cask is because of evaporation.  You lose some liquid, but that's just the water evaporating and the alcohol remains making it a higher abv.

As for beers, the reason Belgians and homebrews can get stronger is because they are bottle conditioned so they still have yeast that can eat away at the sugars.  That being said, any beer that is bottle conditioned can do the same thing.  Almost all beer has a bottling date because the trend nowadays is towards the style of IPAs and DIPAs which are meant to be drank asap.  Other styles, i.e. imperial stouts and barleywines (to just name two that hold up well) can be aged for years or drank fresh.  Everyone has their own tastes.  I myself have some 2 year old barleywines that taste phenomenal, better than fresh.  They haven't gone up in any alcohol content, but the heat from the alcohol has mellowed down a bit making it a smoother drink.  

I think that we may be misinterpreting what each other are saying.  I am looking at the flavor profile over time, not necessarily the alcohol content.  I think there just was a bit of disconnect.
"If you get hooked on scotch, then everything else just tastes wrong."

http://www.cigargeeks.com/index.php?action=humidors;area=public;member=GameOfCigars


Jackal

#13
The reason that higher ABV, pot distilled, liquors change in the cask is by extraction of flavones, tannins and other materials (let's keep column distilled alcohols out of the discussion).  Evaporation and wicking can happen (angel's share), but these phenomena will not normally mellow the liquor (the opposite can be argued, higher concentration of organics will tend to harshen the beverage).  Also, some of the congeners will mellow due to the charred nature of the barrel (adsorption onto the carbon surface).  The porous nature of the wood will also act as ion exchange column, trapping some of the less than desirable compounds.

Modern bottle glass is very non-reactive and non-porous.  The only bottle aging that I have heard that bears some validity involves some forms of short aged Mezcal (less than 50 days in the cask).  However, that is most likely due to extractables that had not had adequate time to complete reaction in the cask.  Material that has spent years in the cask has pretty much gone to completion pre-bottling.

There are some who believe in bottle aging.  I have seen neither proof of this (not a pun) nor a convincing mechanism for this to occur.  

My bet is that if did a double blind experiment where I took 10 samples of whiskey that was "bottle aged" for 20 years and took 10 samples of the same spirit, each from a different production year (thus, bottles aged form 1-10 years), a whiskey taster with a developed palate would not be able to identify which were which.  There will be variation due to the nature of natural products, but there would be no definitive correlation between bottle aging and flavor perception.

I am sure that if I repeated the experiment in a non-blind condition, then you would see bias.


I'll do what I will and I'll drink what I please
I'll smoke what I like 'till I cough and I wheeze
I'll drink and I'll whore and every pleasure realize
For this time tomorrow I may die


GameOfCigars

I am not too sure about not being able to taste it.  I have had Glenlivet that was roughly 30 or so years old vs. brand new Glenlivet and the difference is very prevalent.
"If you get hooked on scotch, then everything else just tastes wrong."

http://www.cigargeeks.com/index.php?action=humidors;area=public;member=GameOfCigars


Dave S.

#15
QuoteGameOfCigars - 6/17/2016  11:30 AM

I am not too sure about not being able to taste it.  I have had Glenlivet that was roughly 30 or so years old vs. brand new Glenlivet and the difference is very prevalent.

You're fighting a losing battle.  Jackal has a Ph.D. in chemistry, and he's our resident expert in all things scientific.

"There are not enough Indians in the world to defeat the Seventh Cavalry."

George Armstrong Custer


Jackal

QuoteDave S. - 6/17/2016  12:12 PM

QuoteGameOfCigars - 6/17/2016  11:30 AM

I am not too sure about not being able to taste it.  I have had Glenlivet that was roughly 30 or so years old vs. brand new Glenlivet and the difference is very prevalent.

You're fighting a losing battle.  Jackal has a Ph.D. in chemistry, and he's our resident expert in all things scientific.


Only a Bachelor's degree, but I have been doing practical work in organic chemistry for 20+ years.

Rebecca could probably argue this better than I could, as her degree is in psychology.

I'll do what I will and I'll drink what I please
I'll smoke what I like 'till I cough and I wheeze
I'll drink and I'll whore and every pleasure realize
For this time tomorrow I may die


GameOfCigars

I wouldn't say it is a losing battle, but a battle that will go nowhere.  It is a point of opinion and taste.  Some people taste more, some less.  But, to each his/her own.  I wasn't trying to start a debate.  I was just seeing if anyone aged cigars alongside an alcohol of choice to see how each held up over time.
"If you get hooked on scotch, then everything else just tastes wrong."

http://www.cigargeeks.com/index.php?action=humidors;area=public;member=GameOfCigars


Jackal

#18
QuoteGameOfCigars - 6/17/2016  11:30 AM

I am not too sure about not being able to taste it.  I have had Glenlivet that was roughly 30 or so years old vs. brand new Glenlivet and the difference is very prevalent.

I may have something to do with the materials (water quality for both the diluant water and that used to grow the grain, barrels used, grain varietal, etc) and/ or the production system from 30 years ago rather than what happened within the glass bottle.  

There are also environmental factors to consider during the aging process.  45 years ago what were the temperature and humidity conditions vs those of 15 years ago (assuming a 15 year old scotch).

I am not trying to start a battle.  It is an interesting topic for discussion.  If there are good arguments (mechanisms) of how the spirit could age in a bottle, I would be very interested in hearing them.

I'll do what I will and I'll drink what I please
I'll smoke what I like 'till I cough and I wheeze
I'll drink and I'll whore and every pleasure realize
For this time tomorrow I may die


GameOfCigars

Another way they can age in bottle is because of the closure system.  Glenlivet uses a cork to stop it, so there has been 30 years of extremely slow evaporation because a cork isn't truly air tight.  Especially when the cork is as old as it is and slowly shrinks due to dryness.
"If you get hooked on scotch, then everything else just tastes wrong."

http://www.cigargeeks.com/index.php?action=humidors;area=public;member=GameOfCigars


Brlesq

Bruce
Chief Enabler 
Guru of Decorum & Sarcasm


Hey! How come Habana is written on here with a Sharpie ?!?

A day without whiskey is like . . . just kidding, I have no idea!


Jackal

QuoteGameOfCigars - 6/17/2016  1:23 PM

Another way they can age in bottle is because of the closure system.  Glenlivet uses a cork to stop it, so there has been 30 years of extremely slow evaporation because a cork isn't truly air tight.  Especially when the cork is as old as it is and slowly shrinks due to dryness.

If that is the case, you could easily model this.  Just pour a glass and leave it out in the atmosphere over the weekend.  You will get the evaporation without fundamentally changing any other factor.  See if the taste changes (you may want to put a gauze or some other loose covering to keep dust out.

I'll do what I will and I'll drink what I please
I'll smoke what I like 'till I cough and I wheeze
I'll drink and I'll whore and every pleasure realize
For this time tomorrow I may die


Rebecca Silverwolf

QuoteGameOfCigars - 6/17/2016  1:23 PM

Another way they can age in bottle is because of the closure system.  Glenlivet uses a cork to stop it, so there has been 30 years of extremely slow evaporation because a cork isn't truly air tight.  Especially when the cork is as old as it is and slowly shrinks due to dryness.

If we are talking slow evaporation over time, that should actually concentrate any harsh flavors, not mellow them. Airflow would typically cause oxidation (not sure how much would occur with that high of an alcohol content), and oxidation of alcohol creates vinegar, which would not enhance the flavor.

As was mentioned, variations in ingredients and environment are what generally creates flavor differences between bottling years on hard spirits. Like the vintage year for wine. Aging in a bottle just isn't going to make that much of a difference, and is more likely to negatively impact flavor than improve it.

Likely what you may have experienced is a change in your perception, either from your sense of taste developing over time, or your expectations of the spirit changing.
"Well, we may not have parted on the best of terms. I realize certain words were exchanged. Also certain... bullets."

"If I ever kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed."

-Captain Malcolm Reynolds

timpellis

According to the Scotch Whisky Association: "Unlike wine, whisky does not mature in the bottle. So even if you keep a 12 year old bottle for 100 years, it will always remain a 12 year old whisky. As long as the bottle is kept out of direct sunlight, the Scotch Whisky will neither improve nor deteriorate, even if it is opened. Whisky that is stored at very low temperatures can become cloudy, but the cloudiness should disappear when the whisky is returned to room temperature."

timpellis

So people who are buying old bottles are doing so for specific attributes from the bottling year or for the age it was when bottled. A scotch bottled in 1956 will taste the same today as it did in 1956. The chemistry just doesn't support anything changing.


   
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