Ok... I just wanted to see what others think. IMHO... I think this is BS... but here we go.
I was on Cbids forum, just lurking and read this.
"I haven't had any recent ones, but when they came out I thought there were a good value for a buy at the local B&M.
So take that with a grain of salt because they weren't fake internet cigars." - this was in this thread http://www.cigarbid.com/Forum/c/posts/659033/Nica-Rustica-by-Drew-Estate-opinions
I personally not a fan of Nica Rustica(they are just ok in my book), but the reference to fake internet cigars was what I was referring to.
a response to was put to that reference -
"Y'know, for years I've heard rumors about that sort of thing... B&M cigars being different from, and better than, the supposedly same exact cigars from internet retailers, particularly large internet retailers with lots of resources and clout.... but I have never seen any hard proof."
(which I agree)
a response was - "Pick up some Avo Synchro's from a b&m and then buy a couple at that other place that's now owned by this place.... Proof... "
???? Maybe my rant doesn't make sense to some, but to spread rumors that cigars that are purchased online vs in store are different... I call BS. I have had AVO syncro from both a b&m and from internet sources... same thing. But that is me... I could understand with Cubans, counterfeits are common, but really. avos or other brands?
Agreed. Sounds like somebody that either works at a B&M and wants to justify why they are better or one of these guys that reviews cigars and tastes the virgin farts of unicorns to start and it transitions to moldy beets and chocolate. Sometimes these guys crack me up with their elitist attitude towards a hobby that is anchored in relaxation and socializing.
In fact, a lot of B&Ms I would venture to say that while nothing to do with the blend, they keep such poor care of their humidor the internet cigars come in better shape than the moldy or dust dry sticks from some of these B&Ms. Not against a good B&M, there are some fantastic ones. But I have been in some that really are sad.
In fairness of course there are some B&M exclusive blends, and there are examples of sticks that were offered in stores then the blend was changed to go cheaper and thrown on the online sites at a huge discount to just capitalize on the name. But the vast, vast majority of cigars sold are the same blend no matter where you buy them.
The debate has been around for decades as far as "authenticity" is concerned over product. Online Vendors are like any other business as they either have the real deal or they go out of business...same with B&M's. KNOW YOUR VENDOR is always the period at the end of the sentence. Veterans know their cigars best....newbs can be fooled because of the lack of experience with product and until they become knowledgeable they will come to understand what is "faux" and what isn't.
I'd hate to see a reputable business get slammed just because some hobbyist "thought" they were smoking an inferior brand/grade of cigar without really knowing what they are talking about. Online sales and businesses just like B&M's are good for all of us...just don't take the bait from places that don't have good reputation that are online start-ups....vet them and see what their policy is as some will market them and advertise ridiculous pricing that just doesn't fit .....most Manufacturers will not allow businesses to sell at agreed upon contracts. At the end of the day read the policy where they have a warranty as to quality...or returns and always use a good Credit Card in case of a dispute for bad product.
Only thing I can think of, in regards to that line of thinking, is that some cigars are mistreated in the internet sales process. Either bad warehouse storage by internet vendors, or just mishaps during shipping, can definitely impact the cigar negatively.
I've had and Undercrown from the B&M and and was impressed. Ordered some off CBid, and they ended up with wrappers falling apart and cracking. Different cigars from the start? Nope, just different storage conditions, and more shipping and mishandling of the internet ones.
QuoteAdwinistrator - 3/11/2019 10:09 AM Only thing I can think of, in regards to that line of thinking, is that some cigars are mistreated in the internet sales process. Either bad warehouse storage by internet vendors, or just mishaps during shipping, can definitely impact the cigar negatively. I've had and Undercrown from the B&M and and was impressed. Ordered some off CBid, and they ended up with wrappers falling apart and cracking. Different cigars from the start? Nope, just different storage conditions, and more shipping and mishandling of the internet ones.
X2 on this. The online vs B&M probably has more to do with treatment of cigars.
If someone bought cigars online, they may have traveled in a plane or a hot mail truck and went from a place that was 30 degrees to a place that was 95 degrees on their journey to get to their destination. Did that person tear open the box, smoke one right away, and declare them a knock off compared to the same cigar that has been sitting in a well maintained B&M's humidor for a few weeks? Of course there would be no surprise of the acclimated well cared for cigar smoked better than the one right off the truck.
I agree with all of the point made so far. I a have had the same experience with the undercrown maduros btw... lol Same source cbid... They must be sensitive to changes. After a few months in the humidor they tend to be fine. I did have one pretty much blow parts, but that was a fluke.(ruined my cigar experience though)
Quotearrow34 - 3/11/2019 10:34 AM
I agree with all of the point made so far. I a have had the same experience with the undercrown maduros btw... lol Same source cbid... They must be sensitive to changes. After a few months in the humidor they tend to be fine. I did have one pretty much blow parts, but that was a fluke.(ruined my cigar experience though)
That is too funny. I was trying to glue mine back together as they were falling apart mid smoke, lol. Something definitely went wrong with the storage of those sticks while CBid had them.
QuoteAdwinistrator - 3/11/2019 10:45 AM Quotearrow34 - 3/11/2019 10:34 AM I agree with all of the point made so far. I a have had the same experience with the undercrown maduros btw... lol Same source cbid… They must be sensitive to changes. After a few months in the humidor they tend to be fine. I did have one pretty much blow parts, but that was a fluke.(ruined my cigar experience though)
That is too funny. I was trying to glue mine back together as they were falling apart mid smoke, lol. Something definitely went wrong with the storage of those sticks while CBid had them.
I would think most would agree that DE quality has fallen since the purchase by Swisher. And I avoid getting cigars from cBid for a number of reasons. Earlier comments are right. I see B&Ms who's management of their humidor is horrible. I think the worst case was a local cigar lounge that had a basic stand up cabinet with an Oasis. The bartender noticed the humidity was low and proceeded to take a spray bottle of warm tap water and "mist' the inside.
QuoteCfickter - 3/11/2019 11:03 AM
QuoteAdwinistrator - 3/11/2019 10:45 AM Quotearrow34 - 3/11/2019 10:34 AM I agree with all of the point made so far. I a have had the same experience with the undercrown maduros btw... lol Same source cbid... They must be sensitive to changes. After a few months in the humidor they tend to be fine. I did have one pretty much blow parts, but that was a fluke.(ruined my cigar experience though)
That is too funny. I was trying to glue mine back together as they were falling apart mid smoke, lol. Something definitely went wrong with the storage of those sticks while CBid had them.
I would think most would agree that DE quality has fallen since the purchase by Swisher. And I avoid getting cigars from cBid for a number of reasons. Earlier comments are right. I see B&Ms who's management of their humidor is horrible. I think the worst case was a local cigar lounge that had a basic stand up cabinet with an Oasis. The bartender noticed the humidity was low and proceeded to take a spray bottle of warm tap water and "mist' the inside.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/t8vI9EexNVS24/giphy.gif)
QuoteCfickter - 3/11/2019 10:03 AM
QuoteAdwinistrator - 3/11/2019 10:45 AM Quotearrow34 - 3/11/2019 10:34 AM I agree with all of the point made so far. I a have had the same experience with the undercrown maduros btw... lol Same source cbid... They must be sensitive to changes. After a few months in the humidor they tend to be fine. I did have one pretty much blow parts, but that was a fluke.(ruined my cigar experience though)
That is too funny. I was trying to glue mine back together as they were falling apart mid smoke, lol. Something definitely went wrong with the storage of those sticks while CBid had them.
I would think most would agree that DE quality has fallen since the purchase by Swisher. And I avoid getting cigars from cBid for a number of reasons. Earlier comments are right. I see B&Ms who's management of their humidor is horrible. I think the worst case was a local cigar lounge that had a basic stand up cabinet with an Oasis. The bartender noticed the humidity was low and proceeded to take a spray bottle of warm tap water and "mist' the inside.
Wow that is bad... The worst I ever saw(handling wise) was in Cabo San lucas at the airport, they had Cubans in the window of the cabo wabo giftshop un sealed and they had blown up, latterly split and looked awful. Made me tear up... My wife(gf at the time) said don't you want to go in and look at the cigars? I said... nope I am good.
:cry:
As far as buying from cbid, here are many sticks I have gotten off of there that have been fine and also I can get them for a cheaper price anywhere, like steve saka's sticks. The sobremesa short torpedo and mi querida sticks can be had for a reasonable price. Otherwise... nope.
Since working in the shop, I have not purchased online. Although there are some great deals online, it is important to support the shops that do have a well cared for, and well stocked humidor. As such, I find that I can match most of the online deals. Not all, but most. The online retailers entice with free lighters, or a deal on adding a 5pk. I use geek math for our deals...just sayin'! :biggrin:
Quotenirab - 3/11/2019 5:43 PM
Since working in the shop, I have not purchased online. Although there are some great deals online, it is important to support the shops that do have a well cared for, and well stocked humidor. As such, I find that I can match most of the online deals. Not all, but most. The online retailers entice with free lighters, or a deal on adding a 5pk. I use geek math for our deals...just sayin'! :biggrin:
Hey Nirab - I am not saying to not support local shops! Just saying the rumors of saying that there is inferior quality online. I support local all the time with singles and 5-packs. I just do the bulk of my ordering online. If I had a local shop that matched most of the deal I could get online, that would rock! But they don't.
Quotearrow34 - 3/11/2019 7:49 PM
Quotenirab - 3/11/2019 5:43 PM
Since working in the shop, I have not purchased online. Although there are some great deals online, it is important to support the shops that do have a well cared for, and well stocked humidor. As such, I find that I can match most of the online deals. Not all, but most. The online retailers entice with free lighters, or a deal on adding a 5pk. I use geek math for our deals...just sayin'! :biggrin:
Hey Nirab - I am not saying to not support local shops! Just saying the rumors of saying that there is inferior quality online. I support local all the time with singles and 5-packs. I just do the bulk of my ordering online. If I had a local shop that matched most of the deal I could get online, that would rock! But they don't.
arrow34...not implied...just added my two cents... :angel:
I'm not sure how long the CI/Cigars.com consortium (which now includes PipesandCigars.com) has been around and what their history is, but Thompson and Holt's have been around for over a century, Famous for 75+ years, Some of the smaller folks like Finck pass the century mark and JR goes back to 1970 or so. I'm not sure how long Cuban Crafters has been around. Mike's Cigars has been around since 1950. Every stinking one has a B&M operation predating the internet. I doubt very seriously that they sort the cigars in storage according to "end sales method", and all profess to have their own humidor warehouses.
And if I remember correctly, a long time ago in a CG galaxy far away, didn't a certain former(?) Geek who may or may not have been known as Podman start up an internet store where most of his company's orders were filled by Cuban Crafters?
My point is I can't see a major cigar manufacturer making two different cigars (one for internet sales. one for B&M sales) with the same label?
Having typed that, however, it does raise another question: Is the, say for example, Fuente Hemingway Short Story I bought in a 5-pk the same cigar I'd have received if I bought a box?
I don't have the experience that you gentleman have and being very limited in my ability to get out most of my purchases are done online and I have gotten much of my info about online vendors and recommendations from the good folks here. I have been fortunate to have not had any bad experiences thus far. Not knowing how the various vendors store their inventory a practice I got into early on, also based on advice I got here, is any cigars I get go into my humidor for at least 30 days before I'll smoke them. I loved Michaels comment regarding the elitist gasbags that try to ruin a pastime that as Michael so eloquently put it is centered around relaxation and socializing.
I like to get singles at the B&M to try stuff, You get to look at it and see what you are getting before you buy, but, sadly if I am purchasing in box quantities I will buy at an online source with the best price, mostly because I am a cheap bastich and if I can save 15 or 20 buck's on a box I am gonna save it. I have other thing's I can spend it on. Of course sometimes the B&M has the best price on the box and I go there and I never notice any difference in quality or flavor no matter where they come from. Just saying, I think it's all a hoax. :smoker:
Supporting local shops is very important. fortunately here in western PA we have a lot of them but what I find is quite a few of the brands I like (Roma Craft, Dunbarton, Flatbed) are not usually carried in those shops so I buy those on-line and try to support the local B&Ms with other lines. I understand that shelf space is limited so that regulates what is available along with what sells.
I don't see a difference in quality, have had bad at both the B&M and On-line
Quotenirab - 3/11/2019 9:43 PM
Since working in the shop, I have not purchased online. Although there are some great deals online, it is important to support the shops that do have a well cared for, and well stocked humidor. As such, I find that I can match most of the online deals. Not all, but most. The online retailers entice with free lighters, or a deal on adding a 5pk. I use geek math for our deals...just sayin'! :biggrin:
Brian you have become my new "online" shop! :)
Having read the attached thread, I think it has been a very long cold winter for some folks, and are occupying their time writing BS in a forum.
I personally like the Nica Rustica for an every day around the house cigar. And while I do agree to an extent about some DE cigars not being the same as the ones of old, they still make a damn good cigar. I had a #9 corona gorda (new size) recently in West Palm that was loaded with flavor
I agree... As for versions of lines, sticks will change with time, stores of blends run out and have to use new crops. They come as close as they can. One I can point to and say aren't the same, are E.P. Carrillo Dark rituals. The new ones just aren't the same :(
Quotearrow34 - 3/12/2019 9:48 AM
I agree... As for versions of lines, sticks will change with time, stores of blends run out and have to use new crops. They come as close as they can. One I can point to and say aren't the same, are E.P. Carrillo Dark rituals. The new ones just aren't the same :(
Well that one was an example of an online company exploiting a popular blend. They didn't even profess it to be the same blend, just used to name because people loved the original DR. Gurkha has been famous for this practice. Padilla has re-released the 1932 blend a couple times and the last was just in name only.
That is one thing that really burns me. I can deal with blends changing over time. It is a handmade, natural product and there are going to be variances. But when they slap a previous name on it just for name recognition, you should know out of the gate that it is a gimmick.....
Interesting thread and good topic of conversation. I support local B&Ms with a few individual purchases and more especially if I hang out in their lounge. But at the same time, I also buy online from reputable dealers (Holt's / CI etc) for quantity because the B&M simply can not match the prices (at least the ones local to me)
I agree, why not name it something different. Or atleast say in the spirit of xxx. This new blend will make you forget about the prior one. etc. But that is usually not the case. That is why i appreciate new sticks and the new blends that have come out, vs the tired older ones that keep getting reintroduced.
Gotta say the punch diablo knocked my socks off.
Good thread and good thoughts all around. For the most part I have not been able to tell any difference between BM and online retailer's cigars. Not that I buy a whole lot from BM retailers but occasionally I do purchase something when I am touristing. One time I bought a ten pack of Montecristo Montes (not the Montecristo AJF Montes) from CP and 8 of the ten were terribly plugged.
I agree that it would be cool if the labels of every cigar had a very small print on it identifying the year of the crop.
I've only been smoking for ~6 years, so this is just assumption on my part...
When you order from online retailers, the likelihood of getting cigars "fresh" is much higher. All about inventory rollover to keep costs down and pass on savings. B&M's are more likely to have cigars that have been nicely simmering a while.
The only non-ISOM I buy these day are Arturo Fuente from B&M. 1 box of Casa Fuente every year from Vegas and 1 box of Hemingway Maduros from my local B&M (got a box of BTL this year too). Will open them 5 years later. My local B&M also tends to have older stock available too. I only go once or twice a year, but last time I was there they still had some TAA from '12.
Age is everything for me, and I'd buy from a well maintained B&M for smoking soon and online only if I planned on resting a few years or more.
Quotejunglepete - 3/12/2019 12:28 PM ... I agree that it would be cool if the labels of every cigar had a very small print on it identifying the year of the crop.
I'd be happy with a boxing date, but hell yeah. The only NC I know that dates is Tat, any others?
I just discovered that Esteban Carreras puts a manufactured date and a boxing date on theirs after buying a box of theirs for the first time...
The one nagging thought I have in reading through this is stuff like the $2 La Palinas and A. Flores that have shown up online. Are those a lesser cigar under the same band versus the much different price point of a year or two prior? Or is it just overproduction and certain websites have a green light to go cheap to move the stock? I know with the A. Flores it started with the corojo I believe, then the habano a few months later, then the maduro, etc. As for La Palina, for a while it was only cigarpage that offered the slashed pricing, and I noticed CI has started making the same blends available at similar price reductions on specials.
As far as local B&M's, I rarely visit them here in California because the tobacco tax is among the highest in the country, and then there's a 10% sales tax on top. They have no chance of coming even close to the price points online. Call me cheap if you want to but I'm not going to pay $15-$20 before sales tax for a Diamond Crown when I can get it for $5-$8 online...I'm not exaggerating. I also feel pretty self conscious when I'm in one that I should buy something because I'm one of the only people setting foot in the place, and I've actually been kicked out of one for not picking something fast enough even though it looked like a high end place. I think the free market for tobacco on the internet is the next thing that will be systematically attacked by the anti-tobacco movers and shakers (and CA seems to lead the country in that regard) so I'm pouncing now while there's a window of opportunity. As it is I won't shop at small batch anymore because they're charging the CA tax to CA residents now. Just a matter of time in my opinion...
Quoteheadfirst - 3/13/2019 1:14 AM
The one nagging thought I have in reading through this is stuff like the $2 La Palinas and A. Flores that have shown up online. Are those a lesser cigar under the same band versus the much different price point of a year or two prior? Or is it just overproduction and certain websites have a green light to go cheap to move the stock? I know with the A. Flores it started with the corojo I believe, then the habano a few months later, then the maduro, etc. As for La Palina, for a while it was only cigarpage that offered the slashed pricing, and I noticed CI has started making the same blends available at similar price reductions on specials.
As far as local B&M's, I rarely visit them here in California because the tobacco tax is among the highest in the country, and then there's a 10% sales tax on top. They have no chance of coming even close to the price points online. Call me cheap if you want to but I'm not going to pay $15-$20 before sales tax for a Diamond Crown when I can get it for $5-$8 online...I'm not exaggerating. I also feel pretty self conscious when I'm in one that I should buy something because I'm one of the only people setting foot in the place, and I've actually been kicked out of one for not picking something fast enough even though it looked like a high end place. I think the free market for tobacco on the internet is the next thing that will be systematically attacked by the anti-tobacco movers and shakers (and CA seems to lead the country in that regard) so I'm pouncing now while there's a window of opportunity. As it is I won't shop at small batch anymore because they're charging the CA tax to CA residents now. Just a matter of time in my opinion...
I had that same thought on the A. Flores, but I hadn't had the first release or the should I say full priced release after it got the nod from Cigar Aficionado. I would think that they overproduced the cigar thinking it would sell like so many do when CA says it is good. I can say that I like the $2 A.flores SP52 and SP56, the A. Flores 1975 Gran Reserva Corojo too.
As for the La Palinas, I have been getting the Reds and Black versions for a reasonable price for the last three years? I remember the 2 boxes Cbid did for like $100? So prices for the Red and Black have been low. I gotta say,I would like the Nicaragua Oscuro version to go on sale :)
QuoteTed - 3/12/2019 3:44 PM Quotejunglepete - 3/12/2019 12:28 PM ... I agree that it would be cool if the labels of every cigar had a very small print on it identifying the year of the crop.
I'd be happy with a boxing date, but hell yeah. The only NC I know that dates is Tat, any others?
Very few others do. (steps up on soapbox)
An Alec Bradley Fine & Rare has more information on the band than any cigar I am aware of. Including things like what issue number it is, roll date, release date, weekly production #, supervisor's name, approved by name, roller's name
The Gurkha 15 Year Cellar Reserve refers to the age of the Dominican filler.
The Tat Cojonu series refers to the release date
the LFD 1994 refers to the start date of Litto Gomez's cigar career
So the dates now on cigars can be confusing
For the bulk of the cigars being produced it is not practical to put dates on the bands. it is an added cost, although somewhat minimal, but constantly changing. The tobacco they use to roll this years Brazilia GOL will not the same as next years, so another new band. Plus these cigars can flow thru inventory quickly, Will you really be excited to get that 2012 box of Macanudo Hyde Parks?
And even if they would add a date what do you add? Release date, roll date, tobacco age?
Just not practical, let the cigars that deserve to have a date recognition do it, the rest can just go on doing what they do now.
Cfickter - I actually would like it if they put a year on the cigar release! I have had instances where I had one box of a cigar and a year later, got a newer release(thinking it was the same) and it was different. But... if they did do that, it would make the releases more like a wine vintage :) We wouldn't be guessing on the release year.... I think it would be a good thing though, considering a lot of us buy and age/store(even if by accident and buying too many other cigars)
Quotearrow34 - 3/13/2019 8:14 AM Cfickter - I actually would like it if they put a year on the cigar release! I have had instances where I had one box of a cigar and a year later, got a newer release(thinking it was the same) and it was different. But... if they did do that, it would make the releases more like a wine vintage :) We wouldn't be guessing on the release year.... I think it would be a good thing though, considering a lot of us buy and age/store(even if by accident and buying too many other cigars)
Ed, I would agree with that only for higher end cigars. If this were possible I would prefer to see the rolled date or crop year as these would give a better indication as the age of the cigar. But I am not sure I would change my mind on buying a cigar just because of this date. I just don't see manufactures doing this. It could cause an inventory nightmare. Remember that in 2017 the US imported 300 million cigars, take that into consideration and add what is still rolled here. it is a lot to track
90%+ of the cigars out there (most Generals, Altidias, DE Acids and all other flavored cigars, Victor Sinclair, 99.9% of Gurkha, etc...) don't need one and even more don't deserve one. Plus 90%+ of smokers won't care. We are a unique bunch @ Geeks, that can even have a discussion like this.
I know! It would be a nightmare! I agree most wouldn't know the difference and wouldn't really care. Also agreed that higher end ones should have box codes like Cubans do. I do remember the total and was pretty proud that American consume that much in the way of cigars. I do my fair share :)
Funny how this rant has changed into a discussion of tracking/wishing for more information on cigars. I, like many here, probably.... research the crap out of cigars when considering what to buy and even consider the blend, where it might be made, etc. I have been luck too when just buying on impulse... but also have been let down after doing a ton of research only to be let down by the hype and my own expectations.
Either way. This is what keeps us coming back for more and really enjoying this hobby. The variety and the flavors that cigars are able to bring into our lives. I can honestly say that in the last 5 years or a bit more, the variety of sticks coming out and the blends has really been amazing. At least for me, 20 years ago when I started, there were main brands that were ok, not really taking risks with blends and playing it safe. I also didn't have the means to buy anything really top shelf back then and my buying habits/tastes have changed and my budget for sticks has expanded to allow me to try new stuff. But I would say better cigars have become more reasonably priced. Yes there will always be sticks that are out of comfortable box purchase range(because I am cheap sometimes) but can be in single or fiver purchase range(Plasencia, OpusX, Davidoff, god of fire, special release Cubans, etc,etc)
My comment on Esteban Carreras was actually just that there was that info on the box, not the cigar band. It's unusual for me to see that info even on the box.
Ed on the La Palinas I guess I was looking at what CI and others were charging for them (~$5 minimum) versus what cigarpage has been doing with them recently. Others like CI slowly are coming around on the red/black/classic prices but there has seemed to be a big disparity in pricing on them until recently.
I'm curious on that Oscuro as well. If it's anything like A. Flores it's probably just a waiting game...
Quoteheadfirst - 3/13/2019 8:37 AM
My comment on Esteban Carreras was actually just that there was that info on the box, not the cigar band. It's unusual for me to see that info even on the box.
Ed on the La Palinas I guess I was looking at what CI and others were charging for them (~$5 minimum) versus what cigarpage has been doing with them recently. Others like CI slowly are coming around on the red/black/classic prices but there has seemed to be a big disparity in pricing on them until recently.
I'm curious on that Oscuro as well. If it's anything like A. Flores it's probably just a waiting game...
Gary, I agree that the prices have dropped like a rock on the La Palinas red/black/classics. Since coming out in 2015ish, they haven't done that well from what I have seen, they are a decent cigar, but not amazing. I too have noticed that some sites still try to peddle them for $5 a stick vs the $2 of recent deals. I have smoked my way through about four boxes of various sizes of the reds and two at least of the blacks(still have half a box left). I liked them at the time,but for the price, have found better sticks. So I am not that surprised on the prices. I haven't really seen them in most B&M stores either, in my market. I still think they have a beautiful band and can be a change of pace vs my more full bodied sticks.
Most places are still charging really high prices on the A. Flores SP series. It does make me wonder if we are getting rebranded sticks, especially with how simple the band is on the SP52/SP56, almost looks too cheaply made, but when viewing it on other sites, it looks just as cheap.... EDIT - actually some sites seem to have an older band that looks a bit nicer... so who knows.
See from 2012 - http://www.acigarsmoker.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/IMG_1213.jpg
See from 2013 - http://www.stogieguys.com/2013/09/09252013-cigar-review-a-flores-serie-privada-capa-habano-robusto.html
I will keep an eye on the Oscuro, i have had a few of those and still do. They are a tasty stick.