Cigar Geeks

Members Lounge => General Cigar Discussion => Topic started by: rah0785 on 01/26/2011 02:38 PM

Title: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: rah0785 on 01/26/2011 02:38 PM
:confused:     I have been placing bid after bid on the sticks they post by the hundreds since yesterday only to have every single bid denied.  I even bid up the the C.I. price per stick for that particular cigar and still got rejected.  

     Has ANYONE ever gotten a cigar bid approved by with set up, and if so, HOW???  So far it seems like a major waste of time having taken hours looking through hundreds of, what C.I. says, are over stocks, old inventory, or whatever.  What pisses me off even more is they say place "realistic" bids so they won't be rejected right out the gate.

     I sent them a few VERY STRONG:mad: notes asking why post all these cigars with no intention of selling them off at a discount price below C.I.'s daily price.  I also asked why they believe anyone would actually pay MORE, PLUS $5 for S&H, then the C.I. daily price as apposed to simply placing a 60 second direct order?  It seems to me their pitch or hope is set up for that very reason.  To finally get you to want a stick so bad you just buy it from C.I. after having 3 bids rejected.  I said when C.I. has a sale it is ALWAYS 40 to 70% off the regular price.  So far MMAO has not given me any discount below C.I. price that would even cover shipping.  Any details about experiences with them would be appreciated.  :thanx:

                                                                  Thanks,  Rich H.
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: Brlesq on 01/26/2011 02:48 PM
Never found anything at a good price on CI's MMAO and have quit even looking there.  However, I have scored a few good deals on Famous's MMAO.

I've also always found that you can get a better deal on either of their respective auction sites if you have patience.
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: nwb on 01/26/2011 02:51 PM
Haven't had any luck with CI MMAO, either. :confused:
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: Cigary on 01/26/2011 02:56 PM
The whole idea is to make you think you are getting a deal..like Priceline or Orbitz.  I consistently beat both of these places when I look for travel deals.  I know too many sources that beat the MMAO deals anyway.
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: junglepete on 01/26/2011 03:04 PM
QuoteCigary - 1/26/2011  3:56 PM

The whole idea is to make you think you are getting a deal..like Priceline or Orbitz.  I consistently beat both of these places when I look for travel deals.  I know too many sources that beat the MMAO deals anyway.

DITTO...waste of time in my opinion...glad to hear a letter was sent!
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: ROTHNH on 01/26/2011 03:05 PM
Quoterah0785 - 1/26/2011  3:38 PM

:confused:     I have been placing bid after bid on the sticks they post by the hundreds since yesterday only to have every single bid denied.  I even bid up the the C.I. price per stick for that particular cigar and still got rejected.  

     Has ANYONE ever gotten a cigar bid approved by with set up, and if so, HOW???  So far it seems like a major waste of time having taken hours looking through hundreds of, what C.I. says, are over stocks, old inventory, or whatever.  What pisses me off even more is they say place "realistic" bids so they won't be rejected right out the gate.

     I sent them a few VERY STRONG:mad: notes asking why post all these cigars with no intention of selling them off at a discount price below C.I.'s daily price.  I also asked why they believe anyone would actually pay MORE, PLUS $5 for S&H, then the C.I. daily price as apposed to simply placing a 60 second direct order?  It seems to me their pitch or hope is set up for that very reason.  To finally get you to want a stick so bad you just buy it from C.I. after having 3 bids rejected.  I said when C.I. has a sale it is ALWAYS 40 to 70% off the regular price.  So far MMAO has not given me any discount below C.I. price that would even cover shipping.  Any details about experiences with them would be appreciated.  :thanx:

                                                                  Thanks,  Rich H.

Rich H.,

You can try checking this thread out and search the forums for the others:

http://www.cigargeeks.com/index.php?topic=5847.0

Basically, I think most of us found that CI's "Make Me An Offer," until you have little to do and enjoy the time and effort it takes, is just flat ass not worth it.

Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: NES Tek on 01/26/2011 03:23 PM
I got a few things there, but this was a few years ago. I got decent prices. Probably not the best, but it was purchasable at that moment instead of waiting for a deal. Haven't used it since though.
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: Dave S. on 01/26/2011 03:32 PM
Over the last couple of years, I've made the following buys from CI's MMAO:

October 14, 2010; 10 cigars; 601 Serie Blue Box-Press Maduro Robusto; $40.00.
April 19, 2010; Box of 20; Alec Bradley Tempus Quadrum; $100.00.
December 23, 2008; Box of 50; Rocky Patel Olde World Reserve Corojo Robusto; $225.00

I could have gotten better deals elsewhere, so I don't use MMAO anymore.
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: lowpro75 on 01/26/2011 03:35 PM
There are some cigars that never go on sale, like Perdomo Edition de Silva's, that you can get a better price on.  

But I'm going to say its a joke, because I like the idea that there are a couple guys at the computer laughing at you as they are rejecting every offer you make. :biggrin:
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: cmmayo on 01/26/2011 03:39 PM
I bought the CI Legends Ashtray on there for around $12-15 instead of $25. It's HUGE, by the way.
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: zac on 01/26/2011 04:12 PM
I bought a 10 pack of JdN Antano Cosul from CI MMAO.  I got it for $31.75 + $5 shipping.  $36.75 total.  I didn't think it was a terrible deal.
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: Herfin' Chef on 01/26/2011 04:20 PM
I bid on a AB Select Cabinet reserve sampler almost 24 hours ago and it reads, "offer is still pending". My bid is $10.00 less then what they're selling it for. So at the end of the day, after shipping and sales tax, if my offer is ever accepted, I'll be saving around $2.00.

As for convenience, I don't see it here. I'm waiting around for a day now to see if I could save 2 bucks.

 :confused:  :confused:  :confused:
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: MT21 on 01/26/2011 04:35 PM
Really?  Would you buy anything from someone who the first thing you see is some guy taking a dump on the toilet?

  :confused:

Then you get "Welcome to my house of pain SUCKER!"

  :-0

They just told you what they think of you.

 :sad:

Stay away.  There are better deals elsewhere.
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: zac on 01/26/2011 05:03 PM
QuoteHerb - 1/26/2011  4:35 PM

Really?  Would you buy anything from someone who the first thing you see is some guy taking a dump on the toilet?

  :confused:

Then you get "Welcome to my house of pain SUCKER!"

  :-0

They just told you what they think of you.

 :sad:

Stay away.  There are better deals elsewhere.

 :lmao:   I never really thought of it that way, but I like it.
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: nwb on 01/26/2011 08:21 PM
Quotecmmayo - 1/26/2011  4:39 PM

I bought the CI Legends Ashtray on there for around $12-15 instead of $25. It's HUGE, by the way.

Back when the Legends ashtrays first went on sale, I won one on Cigarbid for $3.  Like an idiot, I broke it about a week ago.... :mad:

Oh well, it was a good deal and I got my money's worth.  And it is huge!
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: 87North on 01/26/2011 09:25 PM
Quotecmmayo - 1/26/2011  3:39 PM

I bought the CI Legends Ashtray on there for around $12-15 instead of $25. It's HUGE, by the way.

I suppose thats for when you have a Sonny Liston style cigar... :confused:
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: 87North on 01/26/2011 09:26 PM
I haven't bought anything from MMAO in a very long time.  It just never seems worthwhile the couple times I've looked through there.   :rolleyes:
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: kozilla6 on 01/26/2011 10:23 PM
I only ever use this site when they have a free shipping deal. Then I offer a few bucks less than what they offer on the JAM and I usually get what I want for what I offered. This only happens a few times yearly. Otherwise I find it a waste of time.
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: cmmayo on 01/26/2011 10:26 PM
It's basically a last resort before buying something you can't find on sale on CI. Of course, almost everything on CI eventually goes on sale, hits Joe Cigar, or is put on Cigar Bid...

 :confused:
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: rah0785 on 01/27/2011 11:14 AM
WELL IT MUST BE AH MIRACLE OR SOMETHIN' as Pastor Arnold Murray says.  After my request for input on C.I.'s MMAO 100% bid rejection policy I had 6, SIX, EL JOY EL SIXO get approved.  One was for LA PERLA HABANA COBRE BELICOSO, which was COLD at $25, but HOT enough to accept at $25.01! :dancing: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

     Maybe the ICE is broken due to some unwanted attention as I sent them an email detailing the fact that 99% of my fellow cigar smoker that have tried MMAO got surprisingly rejected.  Maybe this is the time for EVERYONE to head their and place some reasonable bids.  I will list what I had approved this morning and you all can take it from their.   Thank you all for the input.

Here is the C.I. daily price followed by my APPROVED bid
 LA PERLA HAB COBRE-10 BEL.  $35,accepted $25.01(AFTER $25 WAS TO COLD!)  
 MARK TWAIN-20                             $60, accepted $40
 CI LEGENDS (GRAYCLIFF)-10          $50, accepted $32
 PUROS INDIOS SPEC AGED-6         $20, accepted $15
 MILD & MELLOW SAMP. #2            $40, accepted $30
 REPOSADO  '96-10(7.1X58)           $30, accepted $20
 GRAYCLIFF MINI HUMI                    $30, accepted $15

I just can't stop thinking about what to say about that $25.01 approved bid after $25 was to COLD.   Like to see if they warmed up to anyone else. :lmao:
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: metalhead y cigarguy on 01/27/2011 11:44 AM
I've never ordered anything either CI's or Famous MMAO site.  Like others I thought it was a waste of time also.
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: rah0785 on 01/27/2011 12:43 PM
QuoteHerb - 1/26/2011  4:35 PM

Really?  Would you buy anything from someone who the first thing you see is some guy taking a dump on the toilet?
  :confused:
Then you get "Welcome to my house of pain SUCKER!"
  :-0
They just told you what they think of you.
 :sad:
Stay away.  There are better deals elsewhere.

     I like your first line the best.  It is perfect.  Never thought much about the ad pic.  I think everyone can understand why.  But, now, after more detailed thought you are right to a degree.  After I informed them of the NEGATIVE response I lucked out, and all of a sudden had 6 bids approved.  What makes the whole situation a continuing joke is the $25 bid I placed on 10 LA PERLA HABANA BELICOSO COBRE"S, an excellent cigar.  They are priced at 20 for $70.  As I was pissed off at the time, I simply sent in another bid at $25.01 in a silly attempt to waste some of their time.  That PENNY made all the difference in the world as my bid was approved the following day.


     :bow:Did they give in to the PRESSURE of the forum posts I made?  Only time will tell if they have mended their ways and are willing to try to live up to the boasts they make on MMAO.  I saved, after tax & S/H over $50, not bad.   Anyone else now bidding on MMAO please slap a quick post here with updates, as I will next month when I bid again.  We will see if they stay on the straight and legit path.  I used Cigarbid.com last night and won a LA PERLA 5 pack.  The site seems to be a SUB-SITE of C.I. as the search lay out and product lines are a lot alike.   I am also going to try Cigarsatyourprice.com as some of you suggested.  Makes purchasing cigars for people like myself with to much time on their hands a bit less boring then my old one day, one order per month routine.  The following weeks I would visit C.I. and see all these great smokes on sale for a day or week but I was all bought up for the month.  Silly but true.
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: nwb on 01/27/2011 12:46 PM
CBid is a sister site of Cigars International.  I'm really not trying to burst your bubble about the deals you got, but you might try using Cbid for future purchases.  Many of the cigars you bought off MMAO regularly sell for much less on what we refer to as "The Devil Site".
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: Ken Kelley on 01/27/2011 12:50 PM
MMAO is a whack.  The only time I seriously tried it was for a tenner of DPG Serie JJ selectos.  I bid up to and a little past what they went for on the Jam and they still turned me down.  Pissed me off so I told them to eat me!  :mad:
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: gitfiddl on 01/27/2011 01:21 PM
QuoteAlphairon - 1/27/2011  1:50 PM

MMAO is a whack.  The only time I seriously tried it was for a tenner of DPG Serie JJ selectos.  I bid up to and a little past what they went for on the Jam and they still turned me down.  Pissed me off so I told them to eat me!  :mad:

Did they get splinters?
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: Herfin' Chef on 01/27/2011 03:23 PM
QuoteHerfin' Chef - 1/26/2011  5:20 PM

I bid on a AB Select Cabinet reserve sampler almost 24 hours ago and it reads, "offer is still pending". My bid is $10.00 less then what they're selling it for. So at the end of the day, after shipping and sales tax, if my offer is ever accepted, I'll be saving around $2.00.

As for convenience, I don't see it here. I'm waiting around for a day now to see if I could save 2 bucks.

 :confused:  :confused:  :confused:


My bid of $30.00 was accepted 36 + hours later.

Deal? Somewhat
Convenience? Hell no.

When I'm primed for buying, I want two things:
A deal and instant gratification.

Not this, sit around for almost two days crap, waiting for some bean counter in Bethlehem, who's crunching numbers to see if my offer is going to fit into his/her profit margin for the month....  :notamused:

(OK, I feel better now... plus I'm getting cigars)

Speaking of cigars...I think I'll have one now...

Tell me more about this "Devil Site" I want to learn the ways of frugality.
I was there once...it looked a bit overwhelming..
-w-
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: capndutch on 01/27/2011 04:44 PM
Tell me more about this "Devil Site" I want to learn the ways of frugality.
I was there once...it looked a bit overwhelming..
-w-
[/QUOTE]


Cigarbid is a horrible site with no deals on it.  In fact you will probably pay more on it than your local B&M.

....  well....    I may be biased in trying to limit the competition on the site.  I buy about 1/2 of my cigars on the Devil's site.
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: nwb on 01/27/2011 05:38 PM
QuoteHerfin' Chef - 1/27/2011  4:23 PM
Tell me more about this "Devil Site" I want to learn the ways of frugality.
I was there once...it looked a bit overwhelming..
-w-

Although I don't use it often anymore, it is great if you like CI's offerings.  Be patient, figure how much you want to pay, set your shipping to weekly, and bid to your hearts content. :biggrin:

Just be prepared for the consequences....
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: Brlesq on 01/27/2011 06:15 PM
Quotenwb - 1/27/2011  6:38 PM

QuoteHerfin' Chef - 1/27/2011  4:23 PM
Tell me more about this "Devil Site" I want to learn the ways of frugality.
I was there once...it looked a bit overwhelming..
-w-

Although I don't use it often anymore, it is great if you like CI's offerings.  Be patient, figure how much you want to pay, set your shipping to weekly, and bid to your hearts content. :biggrin:

Just be prepared for the consequences....

 :word:  :shamebag:  The deals you win will add up to a lot more than you budgeted for.  A 5'er here, another 5'er there, a few high-end singles,  :blahblah: and last weeks bill was $134.  :shootme:

Four bits of advice:

1.  Almost every deal comes around over and over.  Don't be in a rush.  At first (until you know learn the real trigger numbers) just add the ones you want to your 'watch list' everyday for a couple of weeks so you can see where the winning bids typically fall out. Take notes. Some 400 new listings are put up every day!

2.  From this research, picka few items you want and set the maximum price you are willing to pay, and NEVER change it. Some days the site is filled with idiots that are just hell-bent on winning.  Sometimes they bid MORE than what you can buy them for at retail on CI or elsewhere.  Know your prices!  If you lose a few of these, don't fret, you will eventually win on a slow night.

3.  As Nate mentioned, set your shipping to once per week to take advantage of shipping savings.  Pay close attention to the shipping cost of each item you are bidding on.  You will pay the HIGHEST shipping price first, only then does the extra savings kick in.  

4.  Know your financial limits.  Winning becomes too much fun, just like gambling.  Know when to walk away!

Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: kola on 01/27/2011 08:49 PM
I bid from the end of the All Auctions list.

Know your prices.
Set your min and max bid.
NEVER change your max bid to anything higher.

Use http://www.todaysdod.com/ to research prices on specific blends / vitolas.

I have a $129 shipment on its way. I spent some on accessories, but my price-per-stick (before shipping) was $1.56 and they aren't dog rockets - at least by my admittedly low standards.

Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: 87North on 01/27/2011 09:51 PM
This is all great advice on the ways of Cbid.  Heed it well, as it will still add up in the end.  You can't afford to let it get bigger than you want, or can handle.  How the hell else do you think I wound up sitting on 1200 cigars?   :lmao:
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: rah0785 on 01/27/2011 10:45 PM
When they take "longer", according to my 3 bidding rounds it usually means they are approving it.  But you are right.  The effort to bid, rebid, and rebid, and follow, and wait for what you want is not worth the S&H covered win.  Seeing that I saved $51 on an actual $230 worth of cigars is not that huge a discount, about 22%.  The only bid I made that was "nice" was the $20 of the $60 MARK TWAIN'S.

     This CigarBid.com has worked great the first two days.  I KNOW they are a cover for C.I. as the cigar write-ups, selections, and other listing are exactly the same.  Regardless, I have gotten two of 3 bids at decent prices.  I won 15 LA PERLA HABANA COBRE BELICOSO'S for a total of $32.00.  At 2.13 a stick plus tax and S&H the total will be 39.25.  Seeing a box of 20 sells for $70 total (includes tax,S&H), that is a decent buy for a great cigar.  I will stick with them, and try out  Cigarsatyourprice.com next month.  Good luck, and try some GURKHA'S CUBAN LEGACY CHURCHILLS.  They are also EXCELLENT, and for only $2 a stick almost perfect.

                           thanks to everyone who posted here,

                                                       Rich H.     :victory:
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: dawnwells on 07/13/2016 02:42 AM
Hi,

I am new here. I want to know, is that working? Can we score good deal using Make me an offer promotion?

Update: We cannot get huge discount, I tried it several time but failed every time. So, better way is to usecoupon code of cigars international.

Thanks
Title: RE: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: tvolball on 07/13/2016 03:30 AM
I have made them several offers in the past and everyone was turned down. For me...JOKE!
Title: Re: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: headfirst on 07/13/2016 06:34 AM
If you read some of the earlier conversation, Cigarbid is the better deal but you have to be patient and diligent.  Seems to me the MMAO is always going to be just a nominal discount on CI's prices, nothing lower.  Funny thing is they're all one and the same company at the end of the day...
Title: Re: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: McBryde on 07/13/2016 08:32 PM
Wow, this one got REVIVED from the archives!

E
Title: Re: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: GameOfCigars on 07/14/2016 05:51 AM
I can never trust myself with auction style buying.  I like betting too much, thus why I am not letting myself go to Vegas...
Title: Re: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: C130Driver on 07/25/2016 01:40 PM
I think it got revived because the reviver is a spammer. Terrible English, 1 post, and a link to a coupon site. I didn't click the link and I suggest none of you do either. Perhaps an admin might want to look into it.
Title: Re: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: millarddj on 07/25/2016 01:49 PM
QuoteC130Driver - 7/25/2016  3:40 PM

I think it got revived because the reviver is a spammer. Terrible English, 1 post, and a link to a coupon site. I didn't click the link and I suggest none of you do either. Perhaps an admin might want to look into it.

+1
Title: Re: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: headfirst on 07/26/2016 06:43 AM
That coupon link wasn't there in the original post, yeah, looking fishy now...
Title: Re: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: Brlesq on 07/26/2016 05:55 PM
Quoteheadfirst - 7/26/2016  9:43 AM

That coupon link wasn't there in the original post, yeah, looking fishy now...

Talked to Pablo. Its been taken care of.  :shades:

Title: Re: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: bforrester on 11/21/2018 12:07 PM
Old thread, but I've only used MMAO once and my experience was positive.  I got a box of 10 Oliva Serie V Melanio double toro (6x60) for $100.  Their price is normally $129.  It was my one and only bid and it was accepted within a day without any haggling.
Title: Re: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: junglepete on 11/21/2018 02:37 PM
https://www.cigarpage.com/oliva-serie-v-melanio.html

Oliva Serie V Melanio Double Toro
Size (6" x 60)
Strength Mild  Full
5-PACK
In Stock   $48.77

This price everyday and cheaper still when on sale here.
Title: Re: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: Deener27 on 11/22/2018 10:49 AM
Quotejunglepete - 11/21/2018  2:37 PM

https://www.cigarpage.com/oliva-serie-v-melanio.html

Oliva Serie V Melanio Double Toro
Size (6" x 60)
Strength Mild  Full
5-PACK
In Stock   $48.77

This price everyday and cheaper still when on sale here.

That's why it pays to shop around and check all sites.  CI always looks better, but I have found all of the prices to be high.  If you're patient, you can find super deals on your favorite stuff all the time.  Even CBid can be ridiculous now most of the time.
Title: Re: C.I.'s "MAKE ME AN OFFER"-JOKE or LEGIT?
Post by: Chefjohn on 11/22/2018 11:43 AM
I agree with you David. I've gotten some good deals on CBid and have also seen some deals that are not so great. I've learned from a lot of the guys here that you really need to look around the sites.